Managing and university lecturer Ilya Buturlin
One of the few new private traders, who were able to publicly declare itself in this year, was Ilya Buturlin. He showed interesting results of trading on the competition of Chicago and the Moscow Stock Exchange. On why his trade is the only educational and secondary processes at the university, and he spoke about his trading style in an interview with Financial One.
– Tell us how you came to trading.
– At school in the 11th grade, I was disappointed in the study that we ran with another c lessons in free classes “Finam” in “Daev Plaza”. Even first opened an account there.
– Why have run?
– We had a humanitarian grammar school, we were taught in three languages - English, French and Latin, seven lessons a week and literature plus heavy lecturer in mathematics. From the fifth class is all me very tired.
-By who attended?
– I was studying to be a lawyer in the field of financial law at Moscow State Law Academy named Kutafin. He graduated with honors, then received a second degree in Finance Academy with a degree in “financial markets and financial engineering”, and in the same year he entered graduate school. Trading began approximately in the third year.
– What are the first results in trading?
– Merged the first 50 thousand rubles. He traded on the standard indicators, and gaps in the mornings catch. At the evening session came in the morning, while I was at school, asked the little sister close to me. In a crisis, when the RTS gaps were three thousand points I score almost tripled. But then on my birthday I decided to catch a market reversal, but it went against me. First tried to be averaged, to pray to the gods of trading, beat the drums, but then closed the broker margin call. Only on the fifth year he began to read serious books and understand that such risks.
– When you started, did you go to the seminar Alexander Rezvyakova. He helped in the work or is it to raise money?
– I do not think it’s right to evaluate someone. If a person is willing to make the money for training, then let him study. The main thing is that the one who teaches, was responsible for the information offered at the seminar. It is necessary to provide the basics, and even if you read the book, you will need to succeed or older friend, or your own experience.
– Why do not you become a lawyer?
– I am engaged in consulting services in the securities market: the support of activity, preliminary verification of documents of professional participants and issuers to the FFMS, assistance in registration of securities. Registered company “Finskrin” to relatives and supervise its work. Prior to August, while the Federal Financial Markets Service has not acceded to the Central Bank, it was a substantial income.
– Where did you get connection with the Federal Financial Markets Service?
-I was in my fourth year in practice at the regional office of the Central Federal District in the department of administrative proceedings. In 2009, the fifth year of graduation practice was held in the central office, in the department of registration of mutual funds. After three months she worked in the supervisory department, but then left the job.
– shared his impressions of the work in the Federal Financial Markets Service.
– Many directors do not even know that there is a branch of the FFMS, and not aware of the obligation to disclose information. When the service checks of professional participants the amount requested paper is almost half the height of a man. At the time, raised the fines: for the same violations began to take not 50 thousand, and 500 thousand rubles. Many small professional market participants could not pay them, which is reflected in their clients.
How much was paid to the FFMS?
– 10 000 rubles.
– You took it as a salary?
– I have had an account on the futures market, about 500 thousand rubles, and with him I earned. I traded in the RTS index, “the ruble – the dollar.” But at some point, I was forbidden to trade in the department, even though I had my laptop and the internet. I was told: “We believe that the combination with the work is unacceptable.” I agreed.
-If you did not inform anyone about it, no one would know?
– I’m not telling, but there were safety rules. I traded during lunch breaks in, but it turned out that the amount in the account has become first in 300 thousand, and then to 50 thousand rubles. Then I got married and I had to think about the material situation of the family as to live only on wages FSFM very difficult in Moscow. After leaving, I agreed to work with friends in the investment company “FINPROEKT” and combined it with a full-time postgraduate at the Financial University.
– how to work in a company successful?
– After six months of work in the “FINPROEKT” I was offered a full lead the company. I worked for two years, but then it was sold and went our separate ways. A private investment company in Russia – it is a cumbersome business taxes, UST, other deductions, the FFMS requirements. The cost to the trust management are so high that you need to show profitability is not 100, but 200%. Direct access to the stock exchange the company was worth about 3 million rubles. In addition, the Federal Financial Markets Service then began to tighten the requirements to professional market participants, such as raised the required amount of own funds up to 35 million rubles. When you’re done with great difficulty, 25% for the quarter and 15% paid on the cost, then it is unprofitable for shareholders. Each investor can open a brokerage account, to pay personal income tax of 13% and receive consultation or use offshore and not pay anything at all.
– Who are you working with clients?
– Yes, of course, with the offshore companies and physical persons.
– A lot of them?
– Large – ten.
– You have the account was only 500 thousand rubles. Where did all these investors?
– First, parents have entrusted money, and I managed their finances, then there were the familiar assets.
– What do you offer them?
– Asset Management. Said, I can guarantee that the risk of no more than 5%.
– It was tough. No one knew me, and it is an honor for me that the people I trusted.
– Go get?
– In 2010, 3 million for the two months I have made 5.7 million rubles. Of course, no one did not expect this, but I myself, to be honest.
– How do you go investors?
– Through colleagues, friends and acquaintances Financial University. Still have my team. But we do not have money to take every investor. , The second time to take no longer want some when they are taken within three months. It turned out, for example, that the bill in the fall by 5%, then the money was taken away, and immediately after that gold gives + 20%. The problem with most Russian investors is that their demands are contrary to laws of the market: they want everything at once. They do not like to wait, and do not understand the financial arithmetic. In addition, Royalmaxbrokers type dubious company says that makes 50% per month. Such stories leave a serious mark on all management and investment industry as a whole. People do not trust their money managers and prefer to bank products.
– What advice would you give to investors?
– If you can not place your money for a longer period will be for them to experience or are not sure of the control – invest in their education. Take on the business school at Harvard University, will use a thousand times more. Money compared with the development of secondary.
– How much money do you take?
– On 100 thousand rubles, I even one contract for gold on the CME will not buy. In the US, it is a minimum $ 200 thousand, as one contract of gold is worth $ 100 thousand. In Russia, it is impossible to build something interesting on less than one million rubles.
– How much did you take the money for the management?
– It depends on the terms and conditions. If the requirements in terms of drawdown and timing tight, then my percentage of the investor’s income rises to 40%. It may be 30 to 70%, and so on. Typically foundations taken in a proportion of 20 to 80% management fee plus 2%.
– management fees, as I understand it, no?
– Yes, I do not earn a commission.
– How much do you all investor money? About?
– About $ 10 million.
– How much is possible to earn?
– The task of making 5% of their and other people’s capital in the month, but not always successful.
– What’s with the personal account?
– Private account in Russia and in the US, but I’m a conservative working with him, the same 10-15% in the quarter.
– How much money in personal accounts?
– Approximately $ 50 thousand each.
– Maybe we should create a fund?
– This is a rather cumbersome structure. I know this is an example Dmitriya Solodina who created the fund, and as a result of administrative costs eat most of the profits. Now I cooperate more with Aleksandrom Gerchikom.
– How do you work with?
– Managed accounts.
– Together with him?
He’s taught you something?
– decency. I have not heard that he is someone cheated. He publichen but not conceited. To him, for example, any of my students can come and just talk, as we are now.
– Why, after graduate school, you were taught?
– Firstly, I enjoy it. Secondly, this communication in a professional environment with talented teachers and students. Third, it is an opportunity to conduct research.
– The salary of the university – it is the same 10 thousand rubles in the FFMS?
– I can not complain for the salary. Finuniversitet gives the opportunity to earn good money, for example for research work. Of course, it would be desirable to finance domestic science was comparable to the financing of Western universities. When we learned that the deputy Ponomarev for lecture paid 9 million rubles, I was wondering what he was reading.
– How are you over time?
– I’ll take a class three times a week, on Fridays. Previously she taught even in the Tax Academy.
– Among the students there are successful traders?
– I had a student who during the occupation from $ 100 thousand made a $ 1 million he crashed laptop with happiness… I made on the CME on the currency. I am very happy when they sometimes do yield more than I do.
– It is difficult to teach?
– Educate students without a base is difficult. Many come to explain what a stop loss and short, to then give the same theory of Wyckoff. Until I told them all the material will not give, in actual accounts to trade do not advise only on a demo account with real quotes. Very few people learning from others’ experience, and their mistakes better stuff on small accounts. But in general, I try to give them a fishing rod, so that they themselves caught fish.
– What do they sell?
– All different. Fourth-traded options on Volume Spread Analysis method. I told them in practice show the pitfalls, but then they have themselves developed. If they connect together the statistics, probability theory and risk management, they can shoot well.
– You said that there are those who work at Goldman Sachs?
– Yes, it works. At the university they are taken to the summer internship, then the guys are.
– Do not climb to his students?
– Pops particularly nowhere. I worked in the investment company and know what Russian structure. This is a cumbersome organization, where a bunch of costs that do not relate to the exchange on profitability. We offer talented students to join the team.
– Maybe they transmit to the prop-Russian company?
– My students work in the prop. There are severe limitations: it can not carry the position they have huge commission. I showed them to Excel, that if in the prop to make 250 transactions with a commission for a year need to earn 300%.
– Which smells do you mean?
– I will not specify.
– This is the wrong approach?
– It leads to the drain. All the same Dmitry Cheremushkin as far as I know, come to the medium-term trading. In terms of statistics and probability theory, medium-term approach from one year to five years, giving the opportunity to trade with less risk and at a yield of 80-100% per annum.
Reach for the stars
– When did you start trading in the US?
– On the US market, I came in March this year, along with the contest CME World cup trading championships. I decided to participate for the students, because he wanted to make out the subject of risk. We dismantle each transaction. They also recommended me to do something, and we could lose the feet. For me, that’s fine. The goal – to teach the good guys.
– What are the conditions there?
-. Input from $ 10 thousand, the contest goes the whole year. At least ten deals of all time, increased warranty provision. If within the day you can trade one contract with the software at $ 1000, the competition must be at least $ 5000. They cut the usual shoulder. On World cup Commission is ten times larger than the standard. Usually commission of about $ 0.01 or 1%, and World cup about 0.1% to contract.
– What was your amount in the account?
-. Originally $ 10 thousand in the best time, it was about $ 60 thousand When earned 600% from April to May, realized that most likely will win the competition, as this result is in the top 5 for the 30-year history of the competition.. I would like to withdraw money from the account, but in terms of the competition is prohibited to display even a dollar. As a result, I decided to try to reach for the stars – 11,000% Larri Vilyamsa. Deliberately increase the risk, but failed. Volatility grew, and the loading of other activities greatly increased, there was little time to trade.
– No pity?
– No. It’s not a percentage. But I tried, did it primarily for themselves. The experience gained is invaluable, the more involved tens of thousands of people in the competition. In addition, I am still in the black, working with students and see the results.
– With Alekseem Martyanovym – Maytreydom (another participant of this competition -. Note Financial One.) To communicate?
– When, in October, I dropped out of the top five, then wished him luck through his broker. I want someone from the Russian won. This would give an impetus to the new Russian traders.
– What tools do you trade?
– Gold and silver. We students used the system of “four pillars”, I named it myself so. It is based on the works of well-known American traders. Speaking about the research, based on statistics and probability theory, we study three constants – price, time and volume. They analyzed 40 years – where possible.
– Why do not you participate in the “Best Private Investor” contest?
– I am participating. In this competition I’m Thirty traders millionaires.
– There’s a name Buturlin?
– No, I’m under a different name.
– As a result there?
– In the Russian market, I expect a decrease of 10-15%, so I increased the amount of shorts on stocks. Stops working, but in the black list, and this is most important. If the MICEX index dropped to 1400, I expect to make 50% in three months. Will please students, show that patient rule the world. No results in comparison with those who have 100-180%. But we have a diversification of the eight instruments that will give a strong drawdown, and when there is movement, we take his.
-Can you compare the competitions?
– They can not be compared, as the World Cup one contract of gold is worth $ 100 thousand, and by $ 10 thousand dooms me to the tenth shoulder… When the feet are activated, the forums have called Gamblers. Task – to carefully enter and catch the big moves. It is very difficult. Besides, I have a big workload, and it happens that I miss attractive entry points.
– You are invited to go to America?
– During the contest was a lot of offers from individuals from the United States to go and work in the United States. But on the contrary, we are trying to lure American friends here.
– In Russia, somewhere you invited?
– Yes, the investment company, but I refused many. Recently, a Russian brokerage company in which I have been through, came to me with an offer to make a daily newsletter on my behalf. Despite my refusal, three months then circulate it to their customers. message text composed as if I myself or give signalyili almost alone use their signals to the World Cup. My name is not directly indicated, but pointed out my results and place in the tournament. Then another asked to record an interview for them. I do not know how many people subscribe to this list, which they have been the result. In June, I closed them one of the accounts.
Trading or Investing
– Tell us about your approach to trading.
– It is necessary to make a system which will work all my life, and every mistake is to improve it. You need to start with the basics. Therefore, I recommend to explore approaches to Kaufman market Notenberg, Wyckoff and Merriman. Their books are translated into Russian, as such, it is better to read the originals. Each of them has its own approach to the market, however, not all of them may be used in short-term trading. Also, in my method occupy an important place items from a university program – statistics, mathematical methods, economic theory, economic cycles in particular.
– How to use the theory of probability?
– The likelihood of certain events more. Studying cycles, I see that the currency ceased to be correlated with each other (decoupling), which takes place every 8-9 years. This means that we are on the verge of great movements. Wyckoff on the theory it is believed that a major player has a very large portfolios, which create raskorrelyatsii. For example, oil Brent and WTI, gold and silver, copper correlates with RTS index.
– You are using a loop?
– Yes. The same Kondratyev, who was shot in 1938, is still relevant. We conducted a study with students of my data for 40 years, and it works well. the US market is now completed a large 70-year cycle, after which there is likely very tough correction, as in the days of the Great Depression. God grant that it was not. It is necessary to study, not to invest “on hayah”, because I know people who sit with “Gazprom” for 320 rubles.
– What tools do you trade?
– If we talk about strategy, I clearly distinguish between the American and Russian markets. In America can be broad diversification, and Russian portfolios are built around the “Gazprom”, Sberbank, gold, a pair of “ruble – dollar” index.
– What’s a tool you’re wondering?
– Movement of gold and silver was calculated after analyzed 15,000 daily bars for 40 years. With the students we studied platinum, palladium, copper, a pair of “Euro – Dollar», the Swiss franc, the dollar index, Eurostoxx and S P, Light Oil and Brent, Natural Gas, cereals – corn and soybeans. We take dry factors such as price and time. Perhaps the amount of change, market capitalization increased, but when we analyze the price and time, and it works.
– What is your usual risk per trade?
– Depending on the system. I say to the students: “You can, as I have in the competition, to play with a 50 percent risk per trade, but then the second and third transaction may not be. Or risk per trade 0.5-1% for investors with a total drawdown for the portfolio of no more than 10 to 15%. “
– What was your maximum drawdown on the account?
– World cup If we do not take, somewhere around 10%. Once it appears, it means one of the systems goes down, and I say to clients: “You decide, invest further or not.” Although there are willing to unleash the amount of 300% of the drawdown to 50%, but then these arrangements are fixed. But there was no subsidence. On my personal account and the guys from our team had such drawdown.
– What do you have for the team?
– It’s the guys who work with me, there are 10 people. The team gives impetus to the development. It is dynamic, so everyone has an incentive.
– Technical analysis is now working?
– Yes, but it’s not ten indicators, and three. Although sometimes the indicators do not work. There should be a systematic approach.
– In Russia, the shares should it apply?
– Yes, I give students a specific set of indicators – oscillators, Fibonacci, that many people underestimate. The April decline in gold predicted Fibonacci for the last three years. Fibonacci need to build on the daily charts.
– What tools are charting the most effective?
– Momentum, stochastic, RSI, divergence work well on correlated pairs. For example, if gold renews low the past few months, and the money does not update, there will be a divergence, and you can buy silver with a short stop. Stopped working for a couple of trend indicators “ruble – dollar”, so it is best to work on kontrtrendu.
– How do you recommend yourself to invest?
– If you put your child into adulthood, it is investing without leverage. Choose either fixed income or equities. Divide the whole price chart for four or six levels. By reducing certain levels we invest a certain portion of all time is average. Plus every year we earn dividends. By averaging, and the fact that the general trend is always going up, should be in the black. With an increase of 100% fix a significant portion of the profits. A simple example: we can invest in “Gazprom”, when it costs 150 rubles, and can at the price of 70-80 rubles. The only difference is the number of shares: at the expense of them have more dividends. When a child is born, there is a sense of responsibility: the tenth shoulder do not you come, it will be nothing to eat tomorrow.
– What if the shares are not interested?
– People whose actions undermined the credibility of the need to take an interest in investments in the currency, such as a pair of “ruble – dollar”, “euro – ruble”. There skorelirovannye the currency futures market. Many ask me to report on the movements of the dollar. There are clients that I am sending information, and they make their credit operations. This fee-based advisory services enabling them to reduce currency risks in connection with the main foreign economic activity. Each customer pays about 50 thousand. Rubles a month, 5-6 people working with me.
– What you do not like in Russia with a market point of view?
-Lack of liquid instruments. For example, I found it difficult to sell at the evening session of 50 contracts, “Norilsk Nickel”. It is literally a penny. In fact, the evening session is “Gazprom”, Sberbank, “Lukoil”, gold and currency. Well, as with the others be like? Even the “Gazprom” at times been trading with horror when I go Vecherka five hundred contracts. Very strong slippage. In America, we can take the strategy of the three thousand shares, and all of them are liquid. I can not afford that illiquidity.
– What should change?
– Let them buy the London Stock Exchange, or German, we have a lot of money. If you buy the London, you can get back the entire Russian market. In fact, there are many problems in the market regulatory system, and issuers. Of course, the government adopted a strategy for the development of finrynka until 2020, but in practice there are no results. The era of over-concentration.
– How do you feel about the change in the trading hours?
– Due to the abolition of the winter time we moved away from America and Asia, we are not interested. We have to sit up to two nights, and those who, like me, combine the American and Russian markets, trading from 10 am. It is very difficult. I’m due to winter time rarely see family, and it should be in the first place.
– How can we improve the situation?
– It is necessary at least to synchronize the time, so that when the Americans opened at 6:30 am, we did not get to be cleared within 15 minutes, because there are gaps. The same risks. Kondratyev, by the way, said that Russia lags behind the West for 35 years, and it is not clear when we will reduce this gap.
– whether retail-forex Need?
– Of course, because the more segments, the greater the opportunities for diversification. We recently held with the students a simple study: one contract opened on the euro – dollar on the large shoulder at the American broker and famous Russian forex company. Put the foot, the Russian forex company took its own, and the market did not go to the American broker. At first thought, maybe a glitch of some sort, but it happened more than once. Then, in a private conversation, the staff forex company, I was offered to open a normal account. What do you mean normal? They do everything so that people do not earn. Should be assigning ISIN-code and display applications for the exchange, and it turns out that the quotes through programs draw.
– How do you feel about other people’s signals?
– I am advocating a responsible attitude. When a trader gives signals to the site, it should be responsible for the account of others, to warn them of the risks. When he comes in silver, where he has a $ 12 thousand. And someone by only $ 2 thousand., Then it may happen that some traders will not withstand significant movement and a lot of wasted money. Therefore, I do not have a public trading. Although there are examples where the guys give a public signal.
– Are you going to open a website in the new year to sell signals?
– My goal – to train students and market research, and I realize it. It would be a desire, it would already be done. I know that products that provide some of the training, it is not a fishing rod, this trend towards the lake, where, perhaps, there is a fish. We will be four in December tested the algorithm works, and I show them to students. This fishing rod and a quality product. Many traders are afraid to disclose the system as they are no longer supposed to work. But if the approach is good, then it will always work. If it is based on patterns or HFT, it will be more difficult, because the market is changing. Last year I was engaged in arbitrage strategies, but vysokochastotniki of “Deutsche Bank” with its three floors of programmers, of course, out of competition.
– Free to teach you ready?
– This is an ambiguous situation. Sometimes, they come very talented, but they are unable to pay the tuition. And you can always find common ground.
On the other hand, we are talking about research, which spent considerable sums and time. Also important is the psychological factor: the free is not valued by our people, people appreciate only what they are paying a lot of money. Quality investment product should be expensive.
– What is your next challenge?
– I need to finish the studies and thesis in economics in the first place. I decided to protect themselves not only in law but also in the economic profession in the Institute of World Economy and International Relations. We can say that trading – a side effect of my research.
– What do you do apart from trading?
– I diversified. I have a regular income from the stock exchange, and I invest in other projects. For example, my father and I are engaged in the study of useful properties of the products of sea urchins and seaweed. We created a number of products, in particular ehinostrong, and supply them to the center of power for members of the Olympic team.
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